What Sarah Palin Is Fighting: Dispatches from the Health Care Front
As the ABC News website tells the story (HT: commenter William Collins),
The news from Barbara Wagner's doctor was bad, but the rejection letter from her insurance company was crushing.
The 64-year-old Oregon woman, whose lung cancer had been in remission, learned the disease had returned and would likely kill her. Her last hope was a $4,000-a-month drug that her doctor prescribed for her, but the insurance company refused to pay.
What the Oregon Health Plan did agree to cover, however, were drugs for a physician-assisted death. Those drugs would cost about $50.
"It was horrible," Wagner told ABCNews.com. "I got a letter in the mail that basically said if you want to take the pills, we will help you get that from the doctor and we will stand there and watch you die. But we won't give you the medication to live."
Barbara Wagner is not alone in this experience.
"It's been tough," said her daughter, Susie May, who burst into tears while talking to ABCNews.com. "I was the first person my mom called when she got the letter," said May, 42. "While I was telling her, 'Mom, it will be ok,' I was crying, but trying to stay brave for her."
"I've talked to so many people who have gone through the same problems with the Oregon Health Plan," she said.
Indeed, Randy Stroup, a 53-year-old Dexter resident with terminal prostate cancer, learned recently that his doctor's request for the drug mitoxantrone had been rejected. The treatment, while not a cure, could ease Stroup's pain and extend his life by six months.
"What is six months of life worth?" he asked in a report in the Eugene Register-Guard. "To me it's worth a lot. This is my life they're playing with."
The thing is, though, to the state of Oregon, six months of these people's lives isn't worth much of anything—and it's the state of Oregon that's paying the bills. The inevitable result of this, as Gov. Palin has been pointing out, is that a dollar value is placed on human life; if the cost of keeping someone alive is higher than that dollar value, then their life is judged "not worth living." The logical thing to do in that case is to maximize savings and simplify the situation by encouraging the patient to accept euthanasia. This time, euthanasia advocates apologized for this in the case of Barbara Wagner—not because they believed they were wrong, but because the encouragement was offered with "insensitivity," without "the human touch." Next time? Who knows?
There's a reason that in her first Facebook note on this subject, Gov. Palin's thoughts went immediately to her son Trig: this sort of attitude is already dominant in the medical response to Down Syndrome babies. There's a reason why over 90% of such babies are aborted, and it isn't all about what the parents think or want, let me tell you. Or, better, let Gretchen tell you, from her post "Remembering" on the group blog Beautiful Work (HT: Jared Wilson):
It was 2 years ago this month that I was sitting in a chair looking at my unborn baby in 4D. She was precious! We had previously found out that our baby had several “markers” for down syndrome and had enlarged kidneys which may have required surgery upon birth. Thus we were monitored more carefully and had a ton more ultrasound shots at a hospital. This was the first level 3 ultrasound with this pregnancy (I had had one with my 3rd with no problems). I got to gaze upon my baby for almost a full hour—it was wonderful! I was there alone as my husband was out of town. The specialist doctor called me in after the ultrasound to go over the findings. The first words out of his mouth to me were “Well you will have to come in tomorrow for your abortion because of how far along you are.” I was utterly shocked and devastated. All I could do was mutter “What??????” He then proceeded to tell me that my baby had more “markers” for down syndrome and it didn’t look good. I was more shocked that his automatic assumption was that I would abort my baby. I almost couldn’t comprehend what he was telling me in that office. All I wanted to do was run as far away from that man as possible.
Read the whole post—it's well worth it. Like the Palins, Gretchen and her husband opted to have the baby. The irony of their story is that their baby was born two years ago . . . without Down Syndrome, and in fact with no medical issues whatsoever. The automatic reflex of the medical system would have aborted a perfectly healthy little girl.
In all this, I think the reactions of Wagner's ex-husband Dennis, on the one hand, and euthanasia advocate Derek Humphry, on the other (both quoted in the ABC News article), are telling. Here's Humphry:
People cling to life and look for every sort of crazy cure to keep alive and usually they are better off not to have done it.
In other words, Humphry believes, people are better off dying than fighting to live. By contrast, here's Dennis Wagner:
My reaction is pretty typical. I am sick and tired of the dollar being the bottom line of everything. We need to put human life above the dollar.
As it happens, I do believe his reaction is pretty typical among most folks; and in my experience, Humphry's attitude is usually lurking in there among advocates of euthanasia, even if most of them can't afford to be as blunt about it as the founder of the Hemlock Society, a man who has already "assisted" one wife into the grave. This really is the line between the sides here.
Now, at this point, you might be thinking that this doesn't affect you all that much, because the concept of euthanasia doesn't really bother you that much. What you need to understand, though, is that assigning dollar values to human lives corrupts the whole system—the extent to which that already happens with our private insurance bureaucracy is part of the problem with our health care system—and that when it's the government doing the assigning, there's no way to counterbalance that corruption, so it spreads unchecked. As is always the way with consequences propagating through a complex system, that produces changes beyond those which we have already thought to expect.
For instance, in that same first Facebook note, Gov. Palin pointed out a very important point made by Thomas Sowell: "Government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost." She went on from there, as most critics have, to point out that this will inevitably result in the rationing of health care—and so it will, as it always does. But that will not be the only effect of this new reality if Obamacare goes into effect. Our own Doug Brady has also pointed out that the US health care system drives most of the world's medical innovation, including the creation of new drugs, and that government price controls will bring an end to most of that innovation. This too is true, and important; but it too is only part of the cost of price controls. It's not merely that price controls will limit who receives medical care, or that they will depress the future potential of that care; they will also, over time, reduce the present value of that care.
To illustrate this, I want to take you inside a world which I hope is unfamiliar to most of you: that of the neo-natal intensive care unit, or NICU (pronounced "nick-you"). Specifically, I want to tell you a couple stories from the Canadian NICU experience. One, highlighted by Mark Steyn a couple months ago, comes from Hamilton, Ontario:
Hamilton's neonatal intensive care unit (NICU) was full when Ava Isabella Stinson was born 14 weeks premature at St. Joseph's Hospital Thursday at 12:24 p.m.
A provincewide search for an open NICU bed came up empty, leaving no choice but to send the two-pound, four-ounce preemie to Buffalo that evening.
Steyn comments,
Well, it would be unreasonable to expect Hamilton, a city of half-a-million people just down the road from Canada's largest city (Greater Toronto Area, 5.5 million) in the most densely populated part of Canada's most populous province (Ontario, 13 million people) to be able to offer the same level of neonatal care as Buffalo, a post-industrial ruin in steep population decline for half a century.
Unfortunately, as Steyn goes on to point out, whenever the Canadian government starts outsourcing its health care to the US, that creates additional complications:
When a decrepit and incompetent Canadian health bureaucracy meets a boneheaded and inhuman American border "security" bureaucracy, you'll be getting a birth experience you'll treasure forever:Her parents, Natalie Paquette and Richard Stinson, couldn't follow their baby because as of June 1, a passport is required to cross the border into the United States. They're having to approve medical procedures over the phone and are terrified something will happen to their baby before they get there.
Once Buffalo enjoys the benefits of Hamilton-level health care, I wonder where Ontario will be shipping the preemies to. Costa Rica?
The other story I want to tell you is my own. Our oldest daughter has dual US/Canadian citizenship by virtue of having been born in Vancouver, BC; I was a student in the country at the time, so we spent five years as net beneficiaries of the Canadian health care system. I'm not going to demonize it or try to deny its virtues; combined with the medical benefits my wife received for her job, she was without question our cheapest baby despite spending the first two weeks of her life in the NICU. Yet, as I wrote last summer, there were some enormous downsides to the system as well.
We had some truly brilliant doctors, and some wonderful nurses, and the staff at BC Children's Hospital were beyond superb; they cared deeply about their tiny patients and were past masters at making bricks without straw. The thing is, they had to be.
The equipment was junk—they finally gave up on the blood-oxygen monitor on my little baby and took it off when it reported a heart rate of 24 and a blood-oxygen level of 0 (or the other way around—it's been a few years now); while we were there, the provincial government tried to donate some of its used medical equipment, and no one would take it. The Sun quoted one veterinarian as saying the ultrasound they wanted to give him wasn't good enough to use on his horses. Meanwhile, the doctors kept taking "reduced activity days," or RADs (which is to say, they took scheduled one-day strikes without calling them strikes), to protest their contract. I was actually up at St. Paul's in Vancouver for a scan one of those days; the techs were there, obviously, but no doctors. A hospital with no doctors is a very strange place.
I could also tell you about the time we took our daughter to the ER (different hospital) at midnight; there were only a few patients there at the time, but it still took them three hours just to get us into a room, and another hour to see us. It was 5am before we walked out the front door. At that, we were the lucky ones—there were a couple folks still waiting to be seen who'd been waiting when we got there.
Nor was our experience unusual, or even extreme; we prayed for people's friends or family members dealing with serious illness, not just that they would get better, but simply that they would get treatment before they died. Sometimes they didn't. That's why (as I noted in that post) there's an increasing movement against national health care in Canada and elsewhere (though not, as far as I understand, in Britain). That's the kind of thing that happens when the dollar, not human life, is the bottom line of the health care system. We already have too much of that in our country as it is; what Sarah Palin understands, and why she's leading the charge against Obamacare, is that letting the government run the system will only make it worse, not better. Yes, we need change; but for that change to bring actual hope, it needs to be change for the better. Obamacare is the wrong prescription.
(Cross-posted at The Spyglass)






127 comments:
Rob, this is excellent! This paints the philosophy of nationalized health care in a different light. Nationalized health care puts a price on human life, which is priceless, and it puts a value on each individual life when we are all equally valuable.
I think many of us were initially surprised when Gov. Palin made a statement on health care; at least I was. We all see energy as her forte. However, her statements all point to the fact that her pro-life message is not just an anti-abortion message. Instead, it is an all-encompassing sanctity of life message.
Nothing has been removed from the Healthcare Bill
It was in HR 3200 page 425.......Remember.......?
House of Representitives = HR
They are all on 'recess' and one person can not remove an article.
Please Think...Just sayin
texas: different bill. That's the House bill. The removal happened in the bill being considered by the Senate Finance Committee.
Michelle Malkin live on cspan at the right online conference
http://www.c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN_wm.aspx
Rob Harrison......
I still don't understand The Senete is also on recess, is it not ? When I call thats what they tell me.Just sayin........
Sarah Palin is attacked from Italy by Dr Death aka Zekie Emanuel hoping 2 keep seat on Death Panel http://is.gd/2i1PV .Wash Times article.
Yes Zekie it is as Press Sec. Gibbs called him "Zeke" like he is a member of the White House family.
Obama has used Zeke as an advisor for his ObamaCare. Zeke is hardly a member of my family as he cowardly trys to back track on his rationing of medical treatment. A person with DEMENTIA would not receive an operation for say appendix removal? Who decides this stuff? People like ZEKE?
Rob,
Great write up. Thank you for what you do here at C4P. You are an excellent writer.
Rob - very informative, especially for us non-medical types. And very well presented!
texas (durn, why did you have to appear in such close proximity to that great name?!):
The point is that Sen. Grassley made it clear that the pertinent language will not be included in the Senate version of the bill... when that bill...if that bill...comes to a vote. Acknowledged, the vote won't occur until the Senate is in session again, but that doesn't preclude the Senate Finance Committee from removing the language from the draft legislation now.
Sarah's strenght comes from her deep convictions in her faith in God. It is very simple.
She has ample energy for this effort because it points to her son, from which she can draw all the enregy needed.
Parents will understand this.
She also see it as a right to life issue, which mostly until now has been centered around the abortion issue. With the debate now moving into end-of-life issues the right to life theme has taken on an all-new meaning. It also brings to light how ruthless those on the left are. They could always just bury their conscience as they support abortion, saying that the woman's right trumps the right of a fetus, etc.
Now, BO and the boys are saying that the dollar/gov't trump life on either end of one's life.
Well BO just stinks, wether it's Body Odor or Barack Obama.
What sad state of affairs we have come to in this country.
It is not much of a stretch though to go from "abortion thinking" to "death panel thinking." For a society that kills millions every year with abortions, why would we expect any conscience not to be seared? It is just the next logical extension in their thought process.
BO said about abrtion that the issue of it being right or wrong was above his pay grade. We now see that he reall does not view the "taking of life" as an issu above his pay grade. He, and people of his ilk, we always have a covenient excuse to take life.
Honestly, I believe he is the most evil type of person a country could have for a president/leader. Stalin and Hitler also showed little or no value for life.
They are so intent on framing the debate around "savig dollars" that they are now pigeon-holed and can't find any other way of sving dollars. Are you kidding me? There are many other ways to save dollars. How about if they just stopped buying private jets? How about if they quit hiring czars? How about if they just quit with all the porkulus bills?
It remind me of the ending scene in Schindlers List. Oskar Schindler started to cry as he realized he could have saved one more life by trading his nazi right. He could have saved 3-5 lives by trading his car.
How many lives could we save today by trading a few private jets?
Rob,
Thanks for your post. I have been a NICU Nurse for 25 years and could tell you thousands of stories, but one that sticks out most is a 23-week infant that weighed 402 Gms. (less than a can of coke). The doctors and nurses tried everything to save her life and over a million dollars was spent. Last week they came to see me and show of her new school uniform (kindergarten). You cannot put a price on human life.
ESPNetc.,
I really appreciate your recent posts that I have seen, such as the one above.
Life has a Price???
When did we become such a Cold Hearted Society?
In all my life, never, ever, would I think America would decide... Who is Treated, Who is Not Treated...Who Dies and Who Lives...
Thank you Rob.
Proverbs 8:36b
"all those who hate me(God) love death."
Kindergarten. What a great story. I remember when my own kids went to Kindergarten for the first time. Took "first day of school" pictures outside of our house and all that fun stuff.
I am sorry for influential people like al gore to spend the better part of their life chasing an antiseptic goal such as saving icebergs, glaciers and polar bears. And still, they can't rove anything about it. Yet, they continue to scare everyone into massive lifestyle changes.
You will all be shocked if you follow the money trail on all that.
Back to kindergarten and related thoughts, children of all types are priceless. To me mostly because they remind us of how fun things ought to be.
Suffer not the little children!
nicu gina, Your experience touched my heart...your work is awesome...Hats off to you and your fellow workers...
CharterOakie: texas (durn, why did you have to appear in such close proximity to that great name?!): I take offence in your comment, that "IMO" was uncalled for. I live in Texas and proud of it. Time will tell us what's in the final bill. No reason to attack me..I just could not understand how anything can be changed when everyone is on recess.Take it easy!
The death panel is already law! See "'Death panel' is not in the bill... it already exists," at American Thinker.
Charteroakie,
Thanks for the nice words.
Have a great day all. I have some yard mowing to do.
Rob,
This piece was excellent. It is a stunning response against this healthcare reform bill.
nicu gina,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are absolutely correct, you cannot put a price on life.
OK, texas. Then I'll humbly beg your pardon.
It appeared that you were entering the discussion to impugn the credibility of what Rob had posted.
I lived in Texas for years, and I love the state and its people.
Still scratching my head over the point of your earlier posts, however.
NICU Gina - My twins were born at 32 1/2 weeks and spent 2 weeks in NICU. They were actually better off than most in NICU. LEt me say NICUs are the most professional, most caring, BEST medical facilities ever. To all on this site. Gina is a HERO. HEr and all the NICU workers need to be applauded and giving the credit of the HEROES that they are.
President Obama said he didn't want his daughters burdened with a baby.
He apologizes over and over for America.
It is all about him.
Because of the circumstances of how his grandchild might be conceived, that child to him is a burden. To him. It is embarrassing, to him. It is inconvenient, to him.
America's history and all we stand for, is embarrassing, to him.
He looks at everything through the prism of how a situation affects what people think of him.
That is why you see him walking ahead of his handicapped friend, being helped by someone else down the steps.
That is why he wondered about hip surgery for his relative.
That is why, he thought maybe a pill would be better for the elderly woman, than a pacemaker.
That is why, he jokes about pulling the plug on grandma.
That is why the bottom line is dollars, and not life.
The perpetual campaigning before fawning crowds.
The inability to articulate a position, because if he does, he will get opposition.
Being defensive when he is shockingly asked a tough question.
The quickness with which he jumps into a situation, of which he admittedly knows nothing about, because of the color of HIS skin.
It is all about him, all of the time.
Hey Nancy - Obama is also on record as supporting killing a baby who survives an attempted abortion.
It is difficult to really comprehend that the same philosophy that gave birth to fascist Germany & communist Russia is held by people working in the White House.
Thanks everyone. This is a great site. I wish I knew how to post a picture, but I am new to all of this.
I will tell you that the NICU world is very upset about this health care bill.
Are we going to be told that the little 23-week infant can’t be saved because it cost too much… I don’t know
If these people in DC could see families praying at the bedside of there little ones or the joy on a families face when they take their child home, some might have a change of heart.
texas: go here: http://www.conservatives4palin.com/2009/08/senate-to-drop-end-of-life-provision.html
The Finance Committee didn't report out a version of the bill before going on recess; from Sen. Grassley's comments, it appears that its members have been continuing to talk during the recess and have made the decision informally to remove the end-of-life-consultation provision from their version of the bill.
nicu gina: both as a parent and as a former hospital chaplain, I honor you and your colleagues from the bottom of my heart. Once the surgery was over and our own terror faded, the thing that really struck me is just how much worse off most of the babies in there were than ours; and I saw the staff in there working miracles. The equipment was poor, the supplies were stretched thin, and they just made it all work . . . I was in awe of them, and amazed by the testimonials and pictures posted on the walls. I don't know how you all keep doing it, but I give heartfelt thanks to God that you do, for the sake of little people like my daughter. PEC's right on.
I was watching the news this morning, and Murtha said that he didn't think a health care bill would pass this year, and would probably be taken up again in January 2010. Murtha even said that it would probably not pass next year either. Since 2010 is an election year, without 0bama on the ticket, democrat turnout will be far less than in 2008, but with renewed spirit, republicans will turnout in larger numbers. All those dems up for reelection in 2010 know that if they pass anything controversial that doesn't have the support of the majority of the people, like health care, cap and trade, and amnesty for illegals, they will be punished at the ballot box. Hopefully, they'll be punished just because of their association with 0bama and his henchmen.
As a physician myself, may I please remind you of the medical history of Rose Kennedy, the mother of, among others, pro-life advocate and special Olympics founder, Eunice Kennedy Shriver and the mother of Teddy Kennedy, famed liberal lion?
“In 1984, at the age of 94, Rose suffered a severe stroke and she had to use a wheelchair for the rest of her life. She maintained her residence at the Kennedy Compound in Hyannis Port, Massachusetts and was cared for by private nurses and staff. On January 22, 1995, Rose died from complications from pneumonia at the age of 104, outliving four of her nine children.” This is from Wikipedia.
My brother was one of the doctors who took care of Rose, so my sister told me. (My brother and I are not close.) The Kennedys kept Rose alive with a feeding tube for several years. My brother apparently made house calls to the Kennedy Compound.
The Kennedys are Catholic. They could afford this financially. It is none of my business what they did to keep Rose alive.
However, they chose and received this care which might now be denied to everyone else by the new Obama-Care.
If Mrs. Palin wants a case to demonstrate the inequities of the proposed law, look to Rose Kennedy.
nicu gina,
I concur with everyone else. You are amazing.
A HEALTHCARE RATIONING ARGUMENT NO ONE IS ADDRESSING
Nursing Shortage
(From American Association of Colleges of Nursing, Updated June 2009)
* Health Affairs July/August 2009
U.S. nursing shortage is projected to grow to 260,000 by 2025. Twice as large as any nursing shortage in this country since mid-1960's.
* American Health Care Association July 2008
19,400 RN vacancies exist in long-term care settings and 116,000 in hospitals. Total R.N. vacancies in the U.S.more than 135,000 or 8.1%
* The Council on Physician and Nurse Supply March 2008
30,000 additional nurses should be graduated annually to meet the nations's healthcare needs, an expansion of 30% over the current number of annual nurse graduates.
* Nursing Management Aging Workforce Survey July 2006
55% of surveyed nurses reported their intention to retire between 2011 and 2020.
* With the average age of RN's projected to 44.5 years by 2012, nurses in their 50's will account for almost 1/4 of the nursing population.
*AACN's 2008-2009 Enrollment and Graduations in Baccalaureate and Graduate Programs in Nursing
U.S.nursing schools turned away 49,948 qualified applicants for nursing schools in 2008 due to insufficient number of faculty, clinical sites, classroom space, clinical preceptors, and budget restraints.
* Nursing Institute at the University of Illinois College of Nursing: Who Will Care for Each of US? : America's Coming Health Care Crisis
The ratio of potential caregivers to the people most likely to need care, the elderly population, will decrease by 40% between 2010 and 2030.
* Nursing Economics March-April 2005
75% of RN's believe the nursing shortage presents a major problem for the quality of their work life, the quality of patient care, and the amount of time nurses can spend with patients. Nurses see the shortage of nurses as the catalyst for increasing stress on nurses (98%), lowering patient care quality (93%), and causing nurses to leave the profession (93%).
* Joint Commission on Accrediation of Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO) August 2002
Shortage of nurses is putting patient lives in danger. Examination of 1609 hospital reports of patient's deaths and injuries since 1996 found that low nursing staff levels were a contributing factor in 24% of the cases.
Adding a projected 46,000,000 newly insured patients to an healthcare system already in crisis will inevitably lead to rationing. More than half of these uninsured persons are illegal aliens.
AS RAHAM EMMANUEL HAS SAID ABOUT THE OBAMA AGENDA : WHY WASTE A GOOD CRISIS?
Are they planning to overburden the U.S. Healthcare System on purpose to force rationing, socialized medicine and the ultimate government takeover of all elements of the Healthcare System including nurses, doctors, hospitals,....
Based on recent past performance and statements, you decide.
I think that Sarah should write an article about this to get it into the healthcare debate now.
More to Come: Physician Shortage
Than you Rob, You brought up a very good point. Here in the US in my NICU, we have the best equipment that is available. We have a huge research center and teaching staff and we want to throw that all away?
I know we need some reform in the health care system, but you don’t just throw the baby out with the bath water. You fix what doesn’t work and keep what does.
Nancy...Even after crazy days you make me smile.
nicu gina,
I too am a nurse, but work on the other end of the scale. I work at a physical rehab unit...talk about the millions spent and the miracles i've also seen.
"You'll never walk again"...and
seeing familes faces when their loved one takes thier first steps.
"take grandma home and enjoy what's left"...and
seeing that same grandma (after a devasting stroke) actually get out of bed and use the bathroom..all on her own. Now that may sound kind of funny to you all but believe me that is a major goal.
watching amputees use thier prosthesis for the first time.
Having a 102 year old tell me that "I got this here pacemaker on my 99th birthday"..and that he's dissapointed because "I'm gonna miss my bowling night!"
This healthcare bill literally makes me sick.
and let me just say that Sarah Palin is now one of my heroes.
Oh no!!
THE OBAMA HEALTH CARE PLAN IN ONE WORD
By David H. Janda M.D.
"As a physician who has authored books on Preventative Health Care and Health Care Cost Containment, I was recently given the opportunity to be the keynote speaker at a Congressional Dinner at The Capitol Building in Washington D.C... The presentation, entitled Health Care Reform; The Power & Profit of Prevention was well received.
"In preparation for the presentation, I read the latest version of "reform" as authored by The Obama Administration and supported by Speaker Pelosi and Senator Reed. It is important to realize that The Obama Health Care Plan is comprised of two parts..that's right, not one but two parts.
"The first part of The Obama Health Care Plan was buried in The Stimulus Bill which was signed into law by the President in February (see http://www.readthestimulus.org/ ). It is the second part of The Health Care Plan which is now being debated in Congress.
Sarah!!!
Read this!!!!!
"Below is the link to the over 1000 page document.....
http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillT...
"Let me summarize just a few salient points of the two part Obama Health Care Plan. Warning.......They need to put the same warning on The Obama Health Care Plan as they do a pack of cigarettes.....Consuming this product WILL be hazardous to your health.
"The underlying method of cutting costs throughout the plan is based on rationing and denying care, NOT PREVENTING health care need. The plan's method is the most inhumane and unethical approach in cutting costs. The rationing of care is implemented through a Council, equivalent to the National Health Care Board in the British Health Care System. The name given to this panel is The Federal Coordinating Council For Comparative Effectiveness Research ("Federal Council"). (Section 9201 H.R. 1 Version of the Stimulus Bill.)
"President Obama has already appointed the fifteen member Federal Council. According to the Stimulus Bill, p. 152, all members of the Council must be "senior federal officers or employees." Thus, medical treatment will be dispensed by a group of bureaucrats from their ivory towers, not by the hands-on practitioners in the presence of the patients. The council was funded with $1.1 BILLION from The Stimulus Bill. (http://www.hhs.gov/recovery/programs/os/cerbios.html )
"Comparative Effectiveness Research" is based on the formula of the approval or rejection of treatment for patients based upon the cost per treatment divided by the number of years the patient will benefit from the treatment.
"According to former New York Lieutenant Governor and Health Policy Analyst Dr. Betsy McCaughey, the Federal Council will set a cost effectiveness standard for treatment. (Stimulus Bill p. 464) Translation.....if you are over 65 or have been recently diagnosed as having an advanced form of cardiac disease or aggressive cancer, dream on if you think you will get treated.....pick out your box. Oh, you say...this could never happen. Sorry....this is the same model they use in Britain.
"The plan also empowers the Federal Council to create another level of bureaucracy, The Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research. (Health Care Bill, Section 1181, p. 502). The effect of this extra level of bureaucracy is to slow the development of new medications and technologies in order to reduce costs. How special is that!
"The plan also outlines that doctors and hospitals will be overseen and reviewed by The National Coordinator of Health Information Technology. This "Coordinator" will be responsible for monitoring treatments to make sure doctors and hospitals are strictly following what the government deems appropriate and cost effective, and to "guide medical decisions at the time and place of care." (Stimulus Bill, p. 116; see also pp. 442, 446).
Lets get viral!!
Sarah 2012!
OT: Ed Shultz goes through a long preamble, expects corroboration from his two guests, but gets smacked down by them instead.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/32364560#32409460
Nancy @100pm..
You and I must be soul sisters because that was SPOT ON and I couldn't have said better myself.
good job.
Ceejay, he's right--he's talking about the funding for comparative-effectiveness research and the national health-information database; Greg Scandlen wrote about it here, and we linked to his piece here.
terri: I've seen that too, working as a chaplain; it truly amazes me what people manage to do with the help of folks like you and your colleagues--things that socialized medicine will deem impossible and therefore not worth paying for.
I appreciate the real-life stories related in this post. I also thank folks like Gina and Terri who share their experiences of "hopeless cases" who defy the medical odds.
The next time you receive an unsolicited request for donations from a politician, send some of this $$$. Downloads are free at the http://www.thenothingstore.com/
Sarah 2012!!!
OT but not realy. As per usual am spending the morning surfing the news sites to keep up on what's happening.
Have you all noticed as well, C4P is one of the best sites on the www for comprehensive information on the day's most important issues?
This was a moving article and points out how complicated the health care problem is. The first thing I noticed was the tremendous cost of Wagner's treatment. But along with that cost was the miracle that a drug is available. Would a private insurance company have approved this? I don't know, but the private sector does have priorities (i.e., rationing).
We have high medical expenses because we have the technology to do so much.
The current debate seems to have focused on very small issues and provoked a "lot of heat and no light." We need to work together, and the insurance and medical agencies should be working with us rather than trying to maximize profits. Profits are necessary, but exorbitant profits are inhumane.
terri,
You are an amazing person too. Thank you for your examples of what you see in your work. You and nicu gina, are in the same mold as Sarah Palin. You all have servant's hearts.
Thank you terri and nicu gina, you make this country great. God bless you!
sandra: yeah, it's complicated, no question; and no argument, there are some major things that need to be fixed, and the insurance companies are far from blameless in this. But aside from the fact that human beings are sinful, the root problem is that the incentive structure is misaligned; nationalizing the system will only worsen that misalignment.
IMHO, we need to create portability not by narrowing people's options (one payer, the Feds) but widening them (attaching insurance to the person, not the job, and not limiting individual insurance options by state and other considerations, but letting people choose from all the available options). Along with that, I think you have to go to a community-rating type of setup so that insurance companies can't try to make a profit by only insuring young, healthy people, thus broadening and mixing up the risk pool.
sandra is a troll. Do not engage.
God bless all of you medical professionals, for what you do in your professional capacities, and also what you are contributing to the discussion and education here.
troll Sandra's comment, "Profits are necessary, but exorbitant profits are inhumane." is one of those "happy butterfly thoughts" that no one can disagree with.
Much of the medical community is being squeezed. Look on CNBC at the growth predicted for Pfizer over the next 5 years. The experts perdict a 2% yearly growth rate over that time.
This week my medical office was advised by Medicare that consultation fees in the hospital will be eliminated on 1 October 2009. Yes, the consultants will be paid, but at a reduced rate.
I can promise you that the time spent on the consult will be reduced proportionally. Or a physician's assistant will do it.
The Obama administration is not treading water waiting for this major bill to pass. They are making changes already.
Rob: I appreciate your point about the need for mixed pools in insurance coverage. It seems that by having insurance paid by employers, the group has been relatively low risk.
I have worked for a county based system where many of our clients (patients) had been unemployed for many years, often because of their medical conditions. We worked very hard to contain costs, and as a dietitian I was involved in helping with dietary practices by people with diabetes and kidney failure.
We worked hard to keep people alive and enjoying some quality of life. It was never simple.
We can disagree on the method, but I think we agree that something has to be done enable the medical community and families to utilize the amazing advances of modern medicine.
I work in a Oral Surgeon's office, simple tools such as a toothbrush cost around $50. Most of the tools we have to utilize are not recyclable and can not be reused to ensure patient safety.
Practicing medicine is expensive, no matter what field. It always will be. Several factors lead to high insurance costs. The government will not be able to reduce costs, it just won't pay them, like Sarah said.
I've just listened a Fox News interview with a FactCheck.org representative where she TOTALLY MISREPRESENTED the origin - and consequently the meaning - of Sarah Palin's "death panel" . So much for checking the facts "correctly"!!!
Regarding Barbara Wagner: this should be old news by now for anyone that has been following the healthcare debate. The insurance company denied the expensive care, offered a cheap euthanasia pill instead. The Pharmacutical company came in and gave Wagner the expensive drug for free after the insurance company refused to foot the bill.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5517492&page=1
With government run healthcare, it would be the government taking over the role of the insurance company. Any politician that votes for the bill as it stands, where it would be the government denying care rather than private insurance companies, is finished politically. Take that to the bank.
I wouldn't be surprised if healthcare is shelved untill after the 2010 elections. In the meantime all the 'blame' will be put on Sarah Palin and republicans. It will be the stepford media's mission then to convince people that healthcare is needed, with endless specials touting it.
We have the best advanced medical care, that is not the issue. Cost is often times because of research. I got that. The question is a way for people to have "reasonable" access and not lose the quality.
Remember there is nobody without Health Care it is an insurance issue. My guess is a couple of minor regulation changes that somebody as smart as Sarah could send out in a 2 paragraph Facebook would help the situation.
Now as far as the GOvernment telling you this will greatly lower costs. A few decades ago The Government (that these people want us to trust) told us that by cutting way back on the # of smokers would greatly decrease Healthcare cost. Let me say I believe smoking is a nasty unhealthy habit but the fact is the # of smokers in the US has decreased over 50% yet it has had little if any impact on the cost of Health Care. Never trust the Government when they give you a big sunshine story it never works.
Great post! No one is against healthcare reform. But trying to fix healthcare with goverment is like trying to fix a flat tire with a chainsaw: You're gonna end up destroying both the tire and the chainsaw.
I am happy the Senate took out the end-of life section in their bill, but it's still in the house bill. Even so, it's just a smoke screen anyway.
The death panel that Sarah is talking about is already in place & being used, and Zeke Emanuel is on that panel. It was made law in the stimulus bill.
Gelston, that may very well be why you got the news this week regarding the consultation billing. They WILL be rationing care much more than in the past, and we will start seeing our seniors, our infants & toddlers and the infirmed being denied care.
What they should be doing is eliminating fraud within the system. I know of a woman with 2 kids who's ex pays for their insurance. This woman has a Bachelors' degree, and will not work. She is on food stamps, gets medicaid supplements for herself & her kids, and who knows how many other governmental supplements. She is more than capable of working, but even when the economy was good, she knew how to play the system, and she has done it successfully for over 10 years.
They should be going after those kinds of people & NOT rationning care for those who trully need it, but they don't have any interest in doing what is right. What they want is complete control over our lives.
stephanie,
I hope it is a good day in the Carolinas, if I remember your location correctly.
You know, I really don't think we will be denied care. I think it will be a reduced amount of care with less quality.
###
I hope no one takes this as either a sexist or racist comment. It is simply a fact.
About 10 years ago, the number of white males applying for and attending medical school dropped of the table. It was thought at first to be a short term pheomenon, but it has not changed.
The white males will go where they can find wealth and power.
The places at medical schools are being taken by Asian females. Notice that when you see young doctors in the news.
It is not a comment that people like, but women do not take their place in certain fields but, rather, males leave those fields behind and women fill the void. That is a true statement that people hate.
Gelston: You are right. The changes in who is providing medical care have occured. Where are the white men going? What do you think will change in health care delivery?
OMG, must see video of Dennis Miller ripping Harry Reid to shreds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmGO_bTgIf4&feature=player_embedded
sandra,
since I am a primary care, general internist, geriatric MD, I have wondered about that.
Myself and 4 of my siblings are MDs. She are one of the 10 largest medical families in the USA (but don't hold a candle to the 11 Guytons or 9 McManamas).
Of my 17 nieces and nephews, none went into medicine.
They are mostly in business. But the one that I am proudest of joined the Marines and went to Iraq and Afganistan.
As a profitable business for the providers, medicine is finished. Done. Toast. A la casa.
The most profitable professions now are law and dentistry.
Gelson: Thank you for the glimpse into your family. Also thank you for the great contributions you all have given.
Here's a LOL for Saturday from a straw poll for the anti-American folks at Netroots Nation:
Favorable/Unfavorable Among conference attendees at Netroots anti-American convention
http://www.ourfuture.org/files/Netroots-Nation-straw-poll-081409fq1-1.pdf
Sarah Palin: 1/87
Rush Limbaugh: 0/88
Please choose the term that best describes how you think of yourself in political terms.
Progressive 54%
Liberal 26%
Moderate 9%
Conservative 0%
I enjoyed the article, but this point really bothered me:
"The automatic reflex of the medical system would have aborted a perfectly healthy little girl"
This indicates to me that, in your opinion, it would have been a greater tragedy if this "perfectly healthy" little girl were aborted than it would've been if she had Down syndrome and had been aborted. Herein lies the problem. Even those of us who are pro-life, have deep seated beliefs about which life is more valuable. Until we can come to value life because it's life, we are really not that much different than those we oppose.
Gelston,
"I am a primary care, general internist, geriatric MD"
You are a dying breed my friend.
I personally see my gyne but my family still goes to our gen practitioner...:)
And you're right...at the hospital I work at, I would guess that about at least 60/70% of the physicians practising there are Indian.
And interestingly enough i would also guess that about at least 60% of the nursing staff are phillipino.
Gelston...I too am proud of your family member in the military, why?...because 2 of my sons are also in the army. One going to Afghanistan in april and the other is in the army band program.
Let me tell ya I couldn't be more proud of both of them. Yet another reason I support Sarah so much.
i am writing on a liberal blog today too.
they are trying to say now that the conservatives are opposing the Obamacare because medical people are whites who don't want to let blacks in.
OMG
where do they get this junk?
I am sorry that no one commented on my post at 1:21 PM
Okay, Gelson: I will comment on you 1:21 posting. I do not think "Obama-care" would stop any family with the financial resources from what they were doing. I hope that is what Mrs. Kennedy, herself, wanted.
You found a samll majority of postings on liberal sites. I hope you told them about the changes in the demographics of physicians.
Thank you
The doctors and nurses tried everything to save her life and over a million dollars was spent. Last week they came to see me and show of her new school uniform (kindergarten). You cannot put a price on human life.
Actually, you can. All of those physicians and nurses who aided this infant didn't work for free. They wanted to be paid. There's your price.
It's no argument to say that you cannot put a price on human life and then just stick the taxpayers with whatever cost is incurred.
I don't have a choice when my portion of that cost is billed to me as part of my taxes. If I don't pay this cost that is forced onto me against my will then I go to prison or I have the government seize my assets. The money I pay as taxes could be used to buy better food for my family, to pay for orthodontia, to pay for my children's piano lessons, to buy a pretty new dress for my daughter, to buy a new video game for my son, to pay for their grandparents to come out to visit them, to pay for new brakes on the car, etc.
It's silly to say that you cannot put a price on human life when you don't have to pay the price. If this was really so then doctors and nurses should work for free. Every patient who is facing the risk of death should get care provided by staff who don't get paid. Now let's wait and see how long it will take before these people decide that yes, you can put a price on human life when the price is shifted onto unwilling payers.
Governor Palin's point about Americans not being able to afford this boondoggle is right on the money. Her advocacy of increasing the role of HSA and catastrophic insurance is an intelligent call to move reform to a more reasonable direction. Further, under her reforms this sentimental nonsense about any cost being worth it in order to save a life will be debunked because under her sensible reforms the costs don't automatically get shifted to unwilling strangers, rather they're borne by the individuals most affected by the situation.
Her criticism regarding death panels had to do with the government ultimately setting itself up as the final arbiter on these issues. When there are multiple insurers and millions of individuals who pay through HSA, then there are always choices if life and death decisions must be made. There are no choices when one must submit to the dictates of government bureaucrats.
gelston,
Obviously those "bloggers" are ignorant and know absolutely nothing about healthcare.
They know nothing about practising medicine/nursing....and that's the problem.
I would bet that most of those "bloggers" haven't had any experience/personal knowledge in regard to healthcare...heck I wonder if they have even stepped foot into a hospital let alone need any real healthcare. I think alot of the bloggers are on the "younger side". Young enough to "not need" any health insurance or young enough where their parents/grandparents probably don't need any healthcare yet. It's so easy for that group of people to say "can't we all just get along" when they really don't have any first hand experience.
That's why you need healthcare professionals writing up any new bill in regards to healthcare..ya know the experts out on the frontline.
btw gelston in regards to Rose Kennedy.
I hope all people would be able to bring their loved ones home to be cared for..that certainly (imo) the ideal place....but there's something about "outliving four of her nine children." that just doesn't seem right to me.
and gelston you are so right about physician assistants.They will be doing EVERYTHING before long. Makes me wonder how long it will take the government to figure that out and pass along alot of the md responsibilites to them.
Ya know it's already going on with the rn's. I know tptb in my hospital want to pass along some of rn's repsonsibilities to "assistants". It's cheaper that way ya know, you don't have to hire as many nurses.
Gelston: for my part, I didn't think there was anything to add to your comment, short of a full-blown article. Which would be, imho, an excellent idea, but I don't know if I'll have time for it or not; we'll see.
Tara: not at all. I believe, and I do think the overall post makes it clear, that the common assumption that Down syndrome babies are simply to be aborted is a case of the corruption of our medical system by a combination of a money-first attitude and an assumption (explicit or otherwise) that we can put a dollar value on life. My point, rather, was the irony of the situation: those doctors would have killed a healthy baby for being disabled. So automatic is that assumption that they would have aborted that little girl merely on the possibility of Down syndrome, and as a consequence they terrified and traumatized Gretchen and her family for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
Put another way, they would rather kill a healthy baby for no reason than allow a Down syndrome baby to live for good reason. That is the heart attitude, if you will, that I think the bitter irony of Gretchen's case exposes; and quite frankly, it makes me sick.
Alexonian: to say that preserving human life incurs cost is not to say that you can set a price on it, much less that you are thereby doing so. Quite the contrary: when you set a price on human life, you set a point beyond which you will no longer accept the cost. You're confusing your terms and your logic both.
"That is the heart attitude, if you will, that I think the bitter irony of Gretchen's case exposes; and quite frankly, it makes me sick."
Right on Rob!
Rob Harrison,
Quite the contrary: when you set a price on human life, you set a point beyond which you will no longer accept the cost.
I've bolded what I thought were the operative words in the argument. Who sets the price?
This goes to my main complaint about liberalism - phony empathy bought on someone else's dime. I think that a strain of this is at play here. It's easy to say that no one should set a price on human life so long as that price is paid by other people. It's more difficult to make that argument when the cost is borne by the family of the ill member. The family might not start the process with a price that they are unwilling to pay but they will likely reach a point (price) when they realize that they shouldn't pay anymore. Should the sons and daughters and the grandsons and granddaughters be bankrupted or have their college education funds depleted or forgo their own medical procedures in order to free up money to pay for more end of life care. I'd venture that the family that faced such a conundrum would eventually come to a point where they decided the welfare of the healthy and living must now take precedence over the welfare of the ill family member. The point of my original comment is that I find it silly for a NICU nurse to say one can't set a price on human life when she and her colleagues don't bear the cost of meeting that price. If she had to bear the cost of meeting the price, say by working for free, then I suspect that she'd change her argument.
I keep telling liberals that I, a conservative, can out-liberal them if they would just give me their credit cards and allow me to spend their money on the projects that I find worthy. If I can spend other people's money on the social agenda I find worthy, then heck, I'll become a big-spending liberal and claim that I'm very compassionate and caring.
Alexonian: you are continuing to confuse your terms and your logic. That would be the root of your objection, I think.
Either that or you actually are a liberal and are just playing troll, which is also perfectly possible--but in which case, you still don't understand the argument as it is actually being made.
Rob,
Alexonian is certainly no troll. He is more libertarian in his outlook and analysis.
I'd take that one back.
I didn't say he was; I was afk for over a week, and I haven't run across him--it just occurred to me that that might be a possibility. I'm glad to know that he isn't. It doesn't change the fact that in conflating price and cost, he's significantly misconstruing the argument--but it's definitely good to know that he's not doing so on purpose.
Rob,
The argument that Alexonian seems to be making as I understand it is that the problem isn't that there is rationing. A common answer by the left to the death panel charge has been that there is already rationing occurring in the private insurance industry.
However, the left fails to distinguish between government initiating the rationing and private industry initiating the rationing. The latter is a consequence of a natural free market system in which some people bear the consequences of not being as successful as others. The former is left to the will of government, where one's success is not determinative as to whether rationing would claim one as a victim, as it would under a free-market system.
Obama talking today about...
" 'We want to set up death panels to pull the plug on Grandma,' "
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_13131120
I might quote what he said about it if I could make sense of what he said. Oh, well.
He does have a way with words.
As I see it, the argument that he's trying to make is that we already set a price on human life because saving human lives incurs costs which have to be borne by someone. Which, as I've said, conflates price and cost and misses the actual point.
And no, there isn't rationing in the private insurance system. There are refusals to pay costs, certainly, and there are various inequalities in access and the ability to afford care, yes, and to the extent that we can address these without creating bigger problems, we have a responsibility to do so; but there is nobody saying, "You cannot have this care." There is nobody forbidding treatment. It's a profound difference.
To say that we have health-care rationing is like saying that we have food rationing because we have inequalities in people's access to and ability to afford food.
you are continuing to confuse your terms and your logic. That would be the root of your objection, I think.
Here's where I think you're misunderstanding me. Yes, costs are incurred. Yes, costs are different than price. However, price for a specific good is not a factor that is universally applied. To give you an example. The cost to manufacture a bottle of coke is $0.50. The price that can be charged for that bottle of coke on a cold day to a person sitting in their office, is $1.00. Above that price people in that market will chose not to buy. However, the price that can be charged for that bottle of coke on the outskirts of the Sahara desert to a market of people who are dying of thirst, is probably, let's say, $20.00. The cost to manufacture both bottles of coke is the same, $0.50. The price is different.
I take your argument to read that no price can be set on a human life, irrespective of the costs of maintaining that life. I'm saying that the price of maintaining that person's life will reach a threshold depending on who is paying. If your child or grannie is dying and you bear no cost in keeping her alive then you're likely to argue that there is no price that shouldn't be paid to keep your loved one alive. However, when you have to pay the cost of keeping your loved one alive then you will indeed reach a price that you cannot bear, for the sacrifice to the living is greater than the benefit to the ill.
Price is determined by who is paying the cost. Another example. The price that a struggling factory worker is willing to pay to own the Mona Lisa might be $2,000 but the price that Warren Buffet is willing to pay is $1 billion. Another example. The cost to build a house is fixed. The market price of that house will vary and it will vary with little reference on the cost basis for building that house. Prices are set by market demand, not cost of manufacture. Market demand is individual willingness to purchase based on individual means to purchase and individual utility of the good. So back to the original point, the nurse says that you can't put a price on a human life. Who is the you in this case? Society or the individuals in society? Society doesn't exist apart from individuals. There can be no case of society paying a the cost and not passing the cost onto individuals. So, using society as a proxy for strangers, the calculation becomes should we force strangers to bear the cost or should the loved ones bear the cost? It's hard for one not bearing a cost to establish a price to be paid by others for they can't accurately calculate the cost/benefit of the price that is paid. It's easier for one bearing the cost to establish price limits. The former has no feedback on the utility gained or the sacrifice necessary to establish the utility of the "good" in question, while the latter has this utility calculation available to them. A nurse, or anyone actually, that argues that one can't put a price on human life, doesn't have the other side of the equation, the individual sacrifices that strangers must bear when they don't get any benefit from saving that life. From the nurse's position, the don't see the sacrifices that people are forced to make in order to keep that person alive. These people don't have a choice, they're coerced into paying. So, because, the nurse doesn't have this information it looks like one has no basis to establish a price on life.
On the question of who is paying, there is a remarkable difference in how liberals and conservatives view government money. Liberals tend to look at it as "free money" and conservatives tend to look at it as though the money "were their own." When people spend other people's money price, irrespective of the cost of the good, has less meaning than when people spend their own money.
If you still think I'm misunderstanding what you're arguing about cost and price being different then please take a few moments and expand more on your thoughts.
A...
I don't think, no..I KNOW, I couldn't listen to his "town hall campaign speech" one more time.
What I found more interesting was this...
http://www.kjct8.com/Global/story.asp?S=10935901
and I wonder why the media reported it sooo incorrectly....
http://cbs4denver.com/wireapnewsco/Obama.s.Colorado.2.1129698.html
Health care reform is a manifestation of the fundamental differences between conservatives and liberals. Conservatives view the Constitution as a concrete document that limits the power of government; liberals see the Constitution as a "living" document that can be altered at their whims to expand their power. Liberals see this form of health care reform as a means of the government either providing health care or regulating those who do. When this happens, who loses power and volitional control--the people and the health care providers. Who gains power--the government and their growing number of unelected czars and self-appointed bureaucracies. For conservatives, this is a fight for our freedom to choose and to make our own decisions. It's not a fight against something, it's a fight for something. Liberals constantly say that conservatives are the people of "no". This is simply not true. We are the people that say "yes" to personal liberty and responsibility.
Heres how it works in Canada:
I pay a little over $1000.00/yr for health insurance.
The Government pays out about $6000.00/yr - per person.
The $6000.00 is not enough so there is rationing.
Those who can afford it go to America for care, if they dont want to wait.
A growth industry in Canada is organizing trips to other countries for those who need operations which are unavailable in the short term in Canada.
This is what you are looking forward to.
I pay a little over $1000.00/yr for health insurance.
The Government pays out about $6000.00/yr - per person.
Translation: The $7,000/yr.-per person each productive Canadian citizen is funding while allowing the gov't to decide who gets care and who doesn't isn't working.
Thousands demonstrated outside CNN headquarters in Atlanta this afternoon. 4,000 demonstrated outside Obama's orchestrated townhall in CO and yet he reiterated his intention to ram this down America's throat THIS YEAR.
We are close to some sort of tipping point here if cooler heads on the Left don't prevail soon.
Sandra (an absolute troll) mentioned earlier about some companies making too much money. The term "Obscene profits" was bandied around as well.
This country is about making money. It is part of the capitalist credo. It is also about making "obscene profits."
There will always be folks who make a lot more money than others. That is what is so great about this country. People can make a lot of money, or no money, as their work ethic and incentives will allow.
Broke people are broke because they choose to be broke. It's not like the broke people don't see their well-to-do neighbors going to work early each morning and returning home late at night. It's not like broke people can't get into the library and get any number of free books on topics such as self help, money making, etc.
Broke people still spend their "government paychecks" on big screen TVs that are larger than their sofas. The still spend their last loose change int he house on cigarettes and satellite TV.
Why should I feel bad about making alot of money just because others are not as industrious? I don't feel bad about it! Not in this country where everything is available to all who will but plumb the depths of the resources available to everyone.
Setting limits on income, earnings, profits and the like will in no way close the gap between the haves and the have-nots. The have-nots will never have money because they feel there is something bad about it. A bigger problem is that their "deserve-level" won't allow them to keep any money they might come into. Exhibit A are all the dead broke lottery winners.
Some people have an obsession about narrow the gap between the haves and the have-nots. the only way to do it is to beat up the people on top.
If you think that is such a great idea, take it to the macro level. Take all the wealth in this country and give it to an underdeveloped country. That is what BO wants to do. You can tell it in his language to other countries. He is ashamed about everything that makes this country great.
Yes, oil companies make it great. Big Pharma makes it great. And all the rest. Big business is not always a pleasant thing to witness.
There will always be companies that make a lot of money and their will always be people who choose not to make money.
Alexonian, I understand what you are saying, but my position is that if we look to the “ Complete Life System” to decide who gets treatment, what happens to the preterm infant or anyone else that requires added treatment to save or improve their quality of life? To be honest a lot of my patient population is paid for by us via taxes. I have set by many a bed side explaining to families that there is nothing else we can do, but when we can save a life and you look into a mothers eyes begging you do so, what do you do?
And just the way people say the phrase "obscene profits" sound like they have issues with how the money and profits are come by. Like folks who have a lot of money can only come by it through ill-gotten means. Like there is something dirty about it.
Another thing: if people feel this way, that money is evil, it comes from a scarcity mindset. Not an abundance mindset. If you feel some profit is good, but that there is such a thing as having too much profit, then you also feel like there is a limit to how much money there is out there. You feel like if I have money then I must be keeping someone else from having "their fair share."
Nothing could be further from the truth. If you want a lot of money you have to have an abundance mindset. It is as simple as that. Having an abundant mindset will attract money.
This country allows people like Sarah Palin to rise from a common upbringing. We should be celebrating that fact. If everyone is the same, and no one can rise above another, then we will lose all that makes us special.
So when you say that everything is fine, as long as some people don't make "obscene profits", it let's me know that you don't deserve any more than you have, because you have not educated yourself as to how wealth and success really come to a person. You also have not brought yourself up to the deserve level yet in order for you to make huge money.
I am always amazed by the complete lack of understanding of this basic concept of capitalism.
Please, read some books on the topic before you continue to contaminate your own mind about what is an appropriate level of money for others to have or earn.
Stop projecting your own inadequacies about money onto the value systems of others.
Who is is ever to say how much is too much? And to what extent? And based on what value system?
It is always the people who resent that others have more money who jump up and say, "they have too much money."
Hey, go get yourself some more money. Don't try to limit the profit/earning making power of those with a can-do attitude.
There is an unlimited amount of money out there. Just because you go get a bunch of it, doesn't mean that some poor bloke will have less of it. There is more than enough to go around.
But one thing I know for a fact, money will always go to those who attract it. If you have programmed your subconscious to feel like money is not for you, etc. then you will never have any of it. At least not enough of it. That is a guaranteed fact of how money works.
You will always either attract it or repel it.
Where will we go for care? The Canadians can come here.
Perhaps without care available in the US for Canadians they will start their own tea parties and TownHall Protests when the US is no loner an option.
Nicu Gina,
Alexonian, I understand what you are saying, but my position is that if we look to the “ Complete Life System” to decide who gets treatment, what happens to the preterm infant or anyone else that requires added treatment to save or improve their quality of life?
I disagree with the Complete Life System too. But here's my caveat - someone, somewhere has to put a limit on medical care that is provided. I think that that "someone" needs to have "skin in the game" and have a relationship to the patient. Having faceless bureaucrats or a computer algorithm make the decision and then impose it on patients and their loved ones is unacceptable.
To be honest a lot of my patient population is paid for by us via taxes.
And to be fair to the liberal technocrats like Obama and Dr. Emmanuel, they realize this and want to cut because they see that there is no price discipline at work when patients, and doctors, get to spend other people's money. Their problem is that they are jury rigging a failed decision model by adding these death panels on top. What they should be doing is fixing the actual decision model, a model where people and patients are actually connected to the costs of the services that they consume. When you make a decision for yourself, or your loved ones, you find that that decision has more legitimacy in your eyes than a decision that is imposed on your from afar and by strangers. You can come to peace by making your own decision, but when you have a decision forced on you then you get very angry and feel that an injustice has been done to you.
I have set by many a bed side explaining to families that there is nothing else we can do, but when we can save a life and you look into a mothers eyes begging you do so, what do you do?
And that is the problem, it's easy to spend other people's money to save, or aid, that patient because you don't see the consequences that arise from extracting that money from strangers. What could you do with the money saved if your taxes were cut in half? If you have a family, I'd bet that you could do a lot of good with that saved money. So, if you could do good with that saved money then it follows that harm falls on your family when that money is forcibly taken from you to fund the medical procedures of a stranger.
As to what to do, the best course is to operate in a system where that decision is left to individuals rather than to faceless bureaucrats.
Here are some suggestions for Sarah to add to a non-governmental solution to healthcare reform.
1) Tax as income healthcare benefits regardless if they are employer or union provided. Cut the link between healthcare plans and employers. Employers have enough headaches trying to serve customers and employees and don't need this kinda madness sucking their valuable time from focusing on business.
2) Give all Americans a Tax Credit of $5,000 up to the amount of valid healthcare expenses for catastrophic, high-deductible care.
3) Allow tax free up to $5,000 to be put each year in a Medical Savings Account for stuff not covered by the catastrophic plan, and allow rollover of unused amounts to the next year so you can add another $5k.
4) Allow insurance companies to sell plans crossing state borders to provide better competition at the national level.
5) More aggressively fight against Medicare and Medicaid fraud and means test both for now.
6) Tort Reform, Tort Reform, Tort Reform, etc.
7) Imagine how much little government money we would have needed over the last ten years if people actually had to PAY a larger PORTION of their healthcare costs. With insurance and government handling most of it, people don't manage their health or the costs efficiently at all.
8) No insurance for illegals as this would drive up costs of insurance, and suck resources away from citizens. Also, this would give illegals a strong incentive to become citizens.
9) If people want to go without insurance, fine, but keep in mind they risk a personal bankruptcy in the event they get in a major accident, etc.
10) To offset any tax impact, lower individual tax rates down to make it overall tax neutral.
11) Cut or freeze government spending elsewhere for 4 years to hopefully get the deficit down.
Other suggestions to help the economy.
12) Abolish the following taxes: capital gains, corporate income, estate/death taxes, dividend/interst. This would overnight suck capital from all over the world not only into Treasuries, but into DIRECT business investment. The recession would end immediately as foreign companies move plants, offices to the USA.
13) FULL tuition reimbursement upon becoming licensed as a nurse or doctor. The shortage here is devastating and MUST be addressed. I'd make a call to arms across the country to campaign to attract people to the medical professions.
TommyReport, the thing is, if Alexonian were a true libertarian he would not be drawing an equivalence between government and private rationing of healthcare.
Right now the government does not ration healthcare...with medicare some things are covered and some things are not, FOR ALL PEOPLE covered by medicare. It is with the insurance companies that 'rationing' takes place. The government should not be empowered to assume the role of the insurance companies.
Alexonian, the 'libertarian', can't understand this? He may very well be a well-disguised troll.
Ed,
I think that's what Alexonian is arguing: that there is a distinction between government rationing and private insurance rationing if you see what is happening right now as rationing.
He is drawing such a distiction and that is his point. The rationing isn't the issue. It's the actor that's the issue to liberarians and the actor is the government under Obamacare.
Alexonian isn't a troll.
Okay, after reading Alexonian more closely, I'll give him the benifit of the doubt.
EdFab,
Right now the government does not ration healthcare...with medicare some things are covered and some things are not, FOR ALL PEOPLE covered by medicare. It is with the insurance companies that 'rationing' takes place. The government should not be empowered to assume the role of the insurance companies.
Look, theee are some hard truths that exist and those who discuss hard truths are not trolls. The hard truth here is that Medicare has promised over $65 trillion in benefits to people and we don't have the money to pay for those benefits. Before the real estate crash all of the real estate equity in the US totaled only $20 trillion. Our GDP is about $14 trillion. Already we can't balance the budget because we spend and tax too much. Where do you think the money is going to come from to spend luxuriously on the medical care for the rising senior class?
Rationing is coming. The faster that medical expenses rise in relation to overall economic growth the sooner the full impact of that rationing will arrive.
No conservative worth the label should be under the impression that government can pay for non-rationed medicare. Anyone who believes this should be over on the big-spending liberal side of the political divide. What conservatives need to do is confront the need for rationing, reject the Obama model of big Nanny (or Reaper) Government being the decider and embrace the notion of individuals rationing their own care.
There is no escape from rationing. Deal with it.
We need the RAM HAMMER for John in the homage thread. He went to hate speech at August 15, 2009 9:22 PM
Alexonian:
It's silly to say that you cannot put a price on human life when you don't have to pay the price. If this was really so then doctors and nurses should work for free. Every patient who is facing the risk of death should get care provided by staff who don't get paid. Now let's wait and see how long it will take before these people decide that yes, you can put a price on human life when the price is shifted onto unwilling payers.
I think his main argument is to not allow 'unwilling payers', i.e. taxpayers, have a say in what the price is for care. Let the willing payers, i.e. the insured, continue to haggle it out with the insurance companies. I'll agree with that.
Meanwhile, we need Tort reform and a crackdown on fraud and abuse.
Alexonian - I will be paying in little chunks for the rest of my life for my twins born premature. My insurance covered 80% but 20% of a big bill is still high. IS it worth it? You betcha.
Now what we need to do is preach a Culture of Life. This is what our founding fathers had. We got away from it and it got us in this mess. We are not Europe, we are America. "We hold these truths to be Self Evident that all men are Created equal." That is how we are found, not Europe. In Europe they were founded on a system of Royalty that was special and then the peasents that did not.
I know this is rambling but once we get past looking at this from a Government fix and make it that powerful individual that values life then all the rest will fix itself.
Please explain something to me if anyone can. Obama keeps saying at his townhalls that he is going pay for his OBAMACARE with 80% savings he is going to get from Medicare fraud and abuse of the system. Why doesn't he just do that and the savings on the interest we have had to borrow to pay that 80% savings will probably pay for the uninsured.
Why at these townhall meetings doesn't some one ask him if the illegals will be insured and if they are in the 42 million he claims are among the uninsured.
How about requiring that families making over $60,000 have to be insured. Just like you have to have auto insurance. Why overhaul the entire system???
Alexonian, what's that phrase from Reagan? The closest thing to immortality on earth is a government program.
Regarding medicare, what might happen is that certain coverages will be dropped for all (and that is not even close to a gimmee). If you want to split hairs and call that rationing, fine, but it's non-discriminatory. That's assuming that the 'Complete Lives System' and any resemblance to it is defeated.
I think his main argument is to not allow 'unwilling payers', i.e. taxpayers, have a say in what the price is for care.
My point goes even beyond your phrasing. The taxpayer's representative is their elected official. If the elected official has to defend rationing then people come to him with their sob stories. It's harder for the official to defend the rationing to these people than it is to give them a break. Giving them a break means that everyone's taxes go up a bit. For a one case exception, that's not so bad, but when you multiple that one case by hundreds of millions then we've got problems. The key theory here is called public choice theory. It explains why there are so many special interests sucking at the teat of government even when most voters oppose spending money on these special interests.
The key dynamic here is that the family faced with a medical crisis, much like special interest groups, has more dedication to the task of getting a politician to spend public money on them compared to the individual taxpayer who shoulders only a portion of the spending on that one case. It's easier for the politician to bend and spend because the force of argument for not spending on that special case doesn't exist.
Rationing needs to be controlled by those who are closest to the events. These are the folks who can most accurately balance benefits against costs. A politician gets no benefit from rationing and gets happy voters from promising them the moon, which is to spend tax money on them. This is precisely how we got into this mess of "owing" $65 trillion more than we have in the "trust fund" just in Medicare benefits. The taxpayers get bled by a million tiny cuts.
alexonian,
Obviously you do not have any face to face dealings with patients and/or their families.
"What could you do with the money saved if your taxes were cut in half? If you have a family, I'd bet that you could do a lot of good with that saved money. So, if you could do good with that saved money then it follows that harm falls on your family when that money is forcibly taken from you to fund the medical procedures of a stranger."
I hope that neither you or any of your loved ones need any of "that saved money".
You are correct though is saying that, "As to what to do, the best course is to operate in a system where that decision is left to individuals rather than to faceless bureaucrats."
But...there already are living wills and poas in effect. I would say that 70/75% of the senior population that i take care of already have one.
It is available to them to have done at my hospital and every other hospital in this country.
It is offered to them and they can refuse if they want. No employee of the hospital is allowed to witness the document so as the patient discusses with family/friend and thus they are the witnesses.
ESPN: It is sad that you feel that you should keep whatever you get. Many people with money are delighted to share it.
It is nice to be in a position where there is enough left over at the end of the month to donate a little to charity. When there is more than enough, maybe it is time to cut the profits.
You seem to have a very selfish attitude. I hope you can live with that.
Please explain something to me if anyone can. Obama keeps saying at his townhalls that he is going pay for his OBAMACARE with 80% savings he is going to get from Medicare fraud and abuse of the system. Why doesn't he just do that and the savings on the interest we have had to borrow to pay that 80% savings will probably pay for the uninsured.
Because Obama is a snake-oil salesman. He won't achieve those savings. Obama is interested in socialism, not efficiency. He even said this outright during the campaign. Here he is talking with Charles Gibson:
GIBSON: All right. You have, however, said you would favor an increase in the capital gains tax. As a matter of fact, you said on CNBC, and I quote, "I certainly would not go above what existed under Bill Clinton," which was 28 percent. It's now 15 percent. That's almost a doubling, if you went to 28 percent.
But actually, Bill Clinton, in 1997, signed legislation that dropped the capital gains tax to 20 percent.
OBAMA: Right.
GIBSON: And George Bush has taken it down to 15 percent.
OBAMA: Right.
GIBSON: And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased; the government took in more money. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28 percent, the revenues went down.
So why raise it at all, especially given the fact that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be affected?
OBAMA: Well, Charlie, what I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness.
Obama will reject policies which are more efficient if they're not advancing his socialist ideals.
So, in the case you ask about, he won't just implement these savings (imaginary) rather he promises these savings in order to sell his socialist vision. His goal is the socialism. Once we have it, and the savings he promised don't arise, well, too bad, suckers.
How about requiring that families making over $60,000 have to be insured. Just like you have to have auto insurance. Why overhaul the entire system???
Because the goal isn't to "solve" the problem, the goal is to bring about his socialist ideas.
watchyourwallettroll said:
Quit being so selfish with the money you make!
Great googely-moogely, I just reached for my purse to make sure the troll wasn't making off with it right now!
Alexonian, my stance is to let the insured haggle out the care with their insurance companies. Medicare is what it is, but at least it's non-discriminatory. To get a clearer picture we need tort reform (desperately) and an effort made to weed out waste, fraud, and abuse. These all affect private insurance as well.
I agree with just about all of your last post.
I hope that neither you or any of your loved ones need any of "that saved money".
Don't try to lay a guilt trip on me, it won't work. Look, if you're caring for people in need then why don't you donate all of your salary to them? Why do you feel it better to FORCE people to pay for the care of others rather than sacrifice your own resources?
Until you sacrifice you don't get to legitimately play the sanctimony card and pretend that you're a more caring person than me. All you're accomplishing is demonstrating that you're willing to sound more caring, but your actions likely don't back up your comments.
Don't fall into the liberal mindset of believing that just because they advocate for government to spend more on people in need that they are now more compassionate than conservatives who think people need to rely more on themselves and less on Nanny Government. Advocating the spending of other people's money doesn't make one more compassionate. What makes one compassionate is sacrificing one's own money for these people in need.
If the Pharmacutical company didn't come through with providing Barbara Wagner the free life-extending drug, she'd be dead right now as a result of the insurance company's decision not to pay for the drug. That type of leverage and power cannot be given to the government, especially when its politicians are at the mercy of an eternal tax-averse populace.
Tort reform. Eradicate waste, fraud, and abuse. Costs will come down.
Alexonian, my stance is to let the insured haggle out the care with their insurance companies. Medicare is what it is, but at least it's non-discriminatory.
I can respect that position. However, when President Palin assumes office after the failure of the Obama term, she'll have to confront the inability of the Federal Government to pay for the expenses of Medicare with the resources available to the government. What would you suggest she do?
Very important statements on AMA by Dr./Sen. Coburn.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20090815_16_A1_SenTom339196
ESPN: It is sad that you feel that you should keep whatever you get. Many people with money are delighted to share it.
It's a well known fact that conservatives are far more generous with giving to non-church related charities than liberals. This even extends to blood donations. Liberals are really big in pushing for government to do more, but they don't step up to the plate as much as conservatives when it comes time to make personal sacrifices.
Alexonian,
However, when President Palin assumes office after the failure of the Obama term, she'll have to confront the inability of the Federal Government to pay for the expenses of Medicare with the resources available to the government. What would you suggest she do?
Go after tort reform and waste, fraud, and abuse. Only then can a rational decision be made, imo.
Alexonian: I didn't know about the differences between liberals and conservatives on donations. Do you have a reference? Actually it doesn't matter. Each of us has a "mission" and will execute it.
It's too bad that people who have money think it is all their's. I have always been thankful for the gifts I was given and have tried to help those less fortunate. Probably I haven't given enough, but I have always felt the need to give.
Go after tort reform and waste, fraud, and abuse. Only then can a rational decision be made, imo.
I agree that the low hanging fruit of cost savings should be picked first, but let's be honest, they alone won't solve the problem. So yes, get everything shipshape and squared away, and then address the big elephant in the hold of the ship.
Alexonian, I didn't save the link, and I might have heard it on the radio or on tv, so I can't give the exact figure: a very large percentage of tests ordered by doctors are primarily to cover their ass in a potential malpractice suit. Something on the order of 25 to 1.
How much would a car cost if 9 out of every 10 finished cars were thrown out? Who knows how much money can be saved through tort reform and efficient management?
listen alex...
I've worked in the same hospital for many years. It is a catholic hospital and let me tell ya..no one, NOT NOBODY gets refused. Whether you're indigent, illegal or homeless...no one gets refused.
Now do I think that the hospital will see any money from them?...of course not because you see, it is run by a charitable non for profit organization. It is also in our mission statemnt not to refuse care to anyone that needs it.
btw alex...good question.
"However, when President Palin assumes office after the failure of the Obama term, she'll have to confront the inability of the Federal Government to pay for the expenses of Medicare with the resources available to the government. What would you suggest she do?"
I don't have the answers. that's why I'm not president..:)
but I hope that the president would listen to the people that actually work in the medical field and not the so called "experts" that haven't laid a hand on a patient in who knows how long.
Not listen to the bureacrats like the AMA which only 25% of working physicians belong to, OR the ANA which only 5% of the working rn's belong to.
I didn't know about the differences between liberals and conservatives on donations. Do you have a reference?
See here:
Brooks' first chapter debunks the common myth that people who are politically "progressive" are more charitable than others, a myth endlessly promoted by the Left. The data show that at every income level, self-identified conservatives donate more than self-identified liberals, despite the fact that liberals average 6% more income. The difference remains even if we look at registered party affiliation rather than self-identification. And this difference holds for nonmonetary donation, such as donations of blood. Young liberals turn out to be one of the least generous groups of people. Liberals younger than 30 belong to roughly a third fewer community organizations, give about a third less blood, and donate over a tenth less to charity than young conservatives.
To put it bluntly: red-state America is more charitable than blue-state America. States that voted for Bush by 60% or better gave an average of 3.5% of household income to charity; states that voted for Kerry by 60% or more gave 1.9%. People in the top five Bush states were more than 50% more likely to volunteer to help others, and twice as likely to volunteer to help the poor, than people in the top five Kerry states. . . .
This difference continues when we take out of the comparison donations made to religious causes. The religious are more likely to give to nonreligious charities (such as the United Way) than are the secular (71% to 61%) and are more likely to volunteer (60% to 39%). They give 14% more money. They are also more likely to give to family and friends, and give in much higher amounts (46% higher). When asked, secularists often give implausible excuses for their meanness ("I gave at the office," "I was never asked," or "I can't afford it.")
Next, Brooks considers differences in charitableness as it relates to ideology. Specifically, he raises the question of whether people who favor the forced redistribution of income by government ("redistributionists," estimated by one large 1996 survey at 33%) give more to charity than people who oppose government redistribution ("nonredistributionists," about 43% in the same survey). The answer is — drum roll, please! — Hell, no!
Nonredistributionists give four times more money to charity than redistributionists. The gap remains even when you look at donations to nonreligious charities. Nonredistributionists give three and a half times more to such charities than do redistributionists. The gap persists even if you use a more favorable definition of "redistributionist" (as did a 2001 survey). And it persists if you correct for the fact that redistributionists earn about 13% less than nonredistributionists.
Indeed, if you hold income as well as age, ethnicity, religion, gender, marital status, and political affiliation constant, you find the redistributionists less likely to give to charity, to volunteer, to give directions to someone on the street, and even to return extra change to a cashier. If everyone in the general population gave blood at the same rate that redistributionists do, the national supply of blood would drop by 30%.
More here:
As Iyengar and his colleagues subsequently dug deeper into these data, another finding emerged: Republicans consistently gave less aid, and gave over a shorter period of time, to victims regardless of race.
Democrats and independents were far more generous; on average, they gave Katrina victims on average more than $1,500 a month, compared with $1,200 for Republicans, and for 13 months instead of nine.
But for Democrats, race mattered--and in a disturbing way. Overall, Democrats were willing to give whites about $1,500 more than they chose to give to a black or other minority. (Even with this race penalty, Democrats still were willing to give more to blacks than those principled Republicans.) "Republicans are likely to be more stringent, both in terms of money and time, Iyengar said. "However, their position is 'principled' in the sense that it stems from a strong belief in individualism (as opposed to handouts). Thus their responses to the assistance questions are relatively invariant across the different media conditions. Independents and Democrats, on the other hand, are more likely to be affected by racial cues."
Iyengar said he's not surprised by the latest findings: "This pattern of results matches perfectly an earlier study I did on race and crime" with Franklin D. Gilliam Jr. of UCLA. "Republicans supported tough treatment of criminals no matter what they encountered in the news. Others were more elastic in their position, coming to support more harsh measures when the criminal suspect they encountered was non-white." . . . . . .
Also, we take issue with the characterization of Democrats as "generous" because they are willing to "give" more money to the hypothetical victims. Participants were not asked how much of their own money they were willing to contribute, but rather how much "government aid" they thought the victims should receive.
If Democrats are more eager to spend "government" money than Republicans are--and, with the possible exception of members of Congress, it is a commonplace that they are--does this mean that Democrats are more "generous"? Or does it mean that Republicans are more apt to think of government as spending their money, while Democrats think of it as other people's?
It is sad that I feel I should keep whatever I get?
Sad to whom?
I give a lot in many ways. The point is that it should be a personal option. Not a gov/t mandated operation to take from the wealthy blah, blah, blah.
There are so many sanctimonious liberal types who feel they should tell everyone what to do with their money.
Like the trolls on here. It is sad that I don't want to share my money? Haha.
You can take on that sadness if you want to. It is in your head. Not in mine. I give a lot. It's just no one else's business how much I give or to whom I give it.
And why should it be such a sad thing to want to keep the fruits of one's labor.
I promise you right now that if I gave money to a less fortunate person, it would be gone immediately. Spent on something that will be gone in a few hours or days.
Keep singing that kumbaya.
The rest of us will go figure out the problems, fight the wars, hire the people, clean up the hurricane messes, fix the gov't and the country, etc.
It's too bad that people who don't have money think my money is their money.
ESPN Radio Magnetic Client Attraction Show said...
It's too bad that people who don't have money think my money is their money.
Actually, many who have money think that both your money and their money is their money. They seem not to think that their money is your money. It is a simple standard.
Those who don't agree are evil.
That too is simple.
Three parts to giving,
Time
Talent
Treasure
I have chaired several Charity Fundrasiers...Time and Talent touches my heart...The easy way...to giving... is writing a check...Time and Talent come from the Heart...Giving Time and Talent is a Sacrifice....
Regarding charity please read "Who Really Cares?" by Arthur Brooks
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Really-Cares-Compassionate-Conservatism/dp/B001G8WGF2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250395502&sr=1-1
He convincingly proves that conservatives and religious people are much more charitable with their money, time, and blood. For both religious and non-religious charity.
My experience living in the SF Bay Area confirms that liberals talk charity a lot but don't deliver. They try to force via the government other people to transfer their wealth to those who don't produce and in the process end up hurting people by breeding dependency and crushing dignity.
It is the wealthiest place in the USA and yet it is filled with selfish people.
"If Democrats are more eager to spend "government" money than Republicans are--and, with the possible exception of members of Congress, it is a commonplace that they are--does this mean that Democrats are more "generous"? Or does it mean that Republicans are more apt to think of government as spending their money, while Democrats think of it as other people's?"
It means that liberals are more ENVIOUS. That is what drives most of their beliefs. I used to be more liberal years ago but grew up and studied.
The essence of Marxism is envy and jealousy.
It goes all the way back to Cain murdering Abel.
It is sad that I feel I should keep whatever I get?
How about requiring that families making over $60,000 have to be insured. Just like you have to have auto insurance. Why overhaul the entire system???
I can not believe these statements coming on this blog .I thought we are all conservatives here. Well except sandra of course.
Loved the Coke on Sahara example. Other points too philosophical.Some issues can not be solved in dollars and cents ,they border on morality and ethics.Human life is priceless.On the other hand we all must die.
How can we insure something that is inevidable.
On the off chance that people are still reading this comment thread, I very highly recommend that you follow this link over to the Atlantic and read this 6 page article on health reform that Obama isn't pushing. This author is perfectly in sync with my viewpoint. (Which is probably why I recommend the article so highly :) )
OneNewsNow.com Poll
If a GOP presidentiali primary were held today , which of the following candidates would you most likely vote for?
If you haven't voted yet please do
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Poll.aspx?ekfrm=644228
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